Craven Cottage Newsround

October 23, 2008

Thumbs and backsides

Filed under: General — weltmeisterclaude @ 2:37 pm

Does everyone agree that, without changing a thing, Hull are likely to slide down the table as the season wears on?

Why would this be the case? They have won their games fair and square. Why won’t they stay in the top six?

Because they’re not that good. Over time, without changing a thing, Hull will slide down the table.

If this is true for a team at the top of the table, a team who are playing above themselves, why would this not also be true for a team at the bottom of the table? If a team is ‘better’ than its current league position, we might reasonably expect it to improve as the season goes on, without changing a thing.

I think that’s fair. Some reasons why it might not happen:

a) The team is not playing below itself, but really is *that bad*

b) Having failed to start well, the team might make counter productive changes and abandon sound philosophies in the hope that something changes their fortunes. And while this may work, it is as likely to be counter productive

c) The team could continue to play at its current level, but continue to fail to win games. This is not the same as point a). I fully believe that it is possible for a league table to ‘lie’ for a whole season. While it’s not consolation for the teams involved, the worst teams are not always the ones who go down.

Or, as discussed, things will gradually improve as the team at the bottom ‘finds its level’.

Is the above all still reasonable? I think it is. In the 80s a man called Bill James noticed that you could sometimes identify baseball teams due to improve before a season by looking for teams that underachieved the year before. Similarly, he noted that teams overachieving were very likely to regress the season after. We see this all the time in football too, the most recent example being Reading, who bucked the trend for a full season before hurtling downwards the year after. The team in the first season wasn’t as good as their results made them look, and would have been expected to finish lower in the table the year after. The same will apply to Hull: while they’ll presumably beat the drop this season, they should be expected to struggle next year. It’s called the plexiglass principle in the States, or simply, regression to the mean.

So which of the above can we expect?

Option a) can, I hope, be discounted. While there’s no such thing as a team that’s too good to go down, and certainly no Fulham team should make that assertion, it does seem probable that we are not one of the worst three teams in the league.

Option b) will depend on our ability to generate results, I suspect. Note that I’m not saying that *any* changes would be counter-productive. Indeed, some changes to shake things up might be just what the team needs. And if anyone’s going to avoid panicking it’s Roy Hodgson. I believe that Hodgson is strong minded enough to not abandon his principles in a desperate attempt to change the team’s fortunes. Changes will be well thought out and organic, rather than desperate and rash. Which I think is a good thing. So Hodgson should steer clear of this pitfall. The board might not…

Option c) seems quite likely to me. If we continue to play as we are, even with the expected uptick in fortunes (goals), we may not survive.

Herein lies the problem. I believe that, as Fulham fans, we have to accept that in any given season we may get relegated. We can spend money on players who we think can help us to avoid these things, but any team who expects to finish in the bottom half of the table should also be prepared to have a season where things don’t go well and a bottom half finish becomes a bottom three finish. Not that we should glibly accept this, smile ruefully and curse the gods of probability, but reminding ourselves that the dividing line between success and failure in football is minute cannot do any harm. Not that this helps either, but I remain unconvinced that wholesale changes are required, or that if they are implemented they will necessarily make any difference to the season. Wins breed wins; we just need to nab a couple of the buggers. Just as a batsman in cricket may well rely on a dropped catch or two on his way to a hundred, we could do with a bit of unexpected fortune to kick start our own march to glory (or 14th place). The Sunderland escape might even have been that piece of good fortune….

9 Comments »

  1. And chances are, as you imply, it’s broadly luck: by the law of averages, or rather in an act of randomness, a smaller team has outperformed its rivals.

    For more of this you can follow the zeitgeist and read ‘Black Swan’, or read the significantly more relevant and accessible ‘The Drunkard’s Walk’ by Leonard Mlodinow. His explanation of why Roger Maris beat Babe Ruth’s home run record sums it up.

    By the same principle, in any given year it could be Chelsea who get relegated.

    Or Fulham.

    Comment by Joel — October 23, 2008 @ 3:04 pm | Reply

  2. Aha, good shouts. I’ve read Black Swan (and a couple of good articles on Talleb too – esp one in the New Yorker a while back) and I’m sure I have The Drunkard’s Walk lying around somewhere too. Despite being beyond terrible at probability, I am fascinated by randomness and its effects.

    Baseball’s interesting in that it’s sort of accepted there that 162 games is not always sufficient for things to fully even out. I’ve spoken to the people at Warwick University, mathematical modellers who focus on football, and they agree that the same very much applies to our game, and that in any given year they would expect a team like Fulham to finish – you’ve guessed it – anywhere between 5th and 20th!

    A team can – for whatever reason – build momentum (positive or negative) that lasts for a good chunk of the season, and that momentum may well be built on something completely random. Christ, Hull’s momentum may very well have started with Paul Konchesky getting in a tangle during that first game of the season. Certainly if we’d scored again during that opening barrage I doubt they’d have gone on to win so many games.

    Who knows? The main point I think is that while Roy Hodgson may not have played his cards perfectly so far, it’s far from clear that taking alternative actions would have made much of a difference either.

    Anyway, after trying hard to stay succinct above I’m in danger of waffling my way into bother, so will shut up now.

    Comment by weltmeisterclaude — October 23, 2008 @ 3:23 pm | Reply

  3. it does seem probable that we are not one of the worst three teams in the league.

    I have trouble reaching that conclusion. Do we really think Newcastle and Tottenham will stay in the bottom 3 all season?

    Comment by Nordy — October 23, 2008 @ 3:52 pm | Reply

  4. Three teams that won’t be relegated this season: Newcastle, Tottenham, and Fulham.

    Having said that, Fulham will definitely be relegated in time. About 18 months ago, I wrote an article about this for fulhamusa.com. It was aimed primarily at new supporters of the EPL and of Fulham, but I think it’s still pretty true. I am unashamed of linking it here:
    http://www.fulhamusa.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=547

    Comment by HatterDon — October 23, 2008 @ 5:40 pm | Reply

  5. and what an article it is Don. When I read it last year I had my first ‘aha’ moment when it comes to football.

    I’m not sure what to say here, other than I think Fulham is always in jeopardy to be relegated as you both have said. I accept that principle now so every win is precious.

    I have been thinking a lot about Hull lately. Best story in the EPL so far this year. I saw their match last weekend, and a couple of others, and remain convinced they won’t sniff the relegation zone this year. They play with heart. That manager has them playing above their ‘on paper’ quality however they do have some decent players and I find them enjoyable to watch because they do play a scrappy and tenacious style with lots of pressure.

    I also believe Fulham is still coming together as a unit and Roy is not likely to change much as I think he believes the 11 he has been playing, are his best and his patience will pay dividends soon. I look for a turnaround in November.

    Comment by RR — October 23, 2008 @ 9:25 pm | Reply

  6. I would love to hear everyone’s opinions…who are the three worst teams in the league this year?

    I’d go with:

    1) Stoke
    2) Bolton
    3) ????

    I’m afraid that third team might be Fulham. Please offer your choices for the three worst teams, and help talk me down from the ledge!

    Comment by Nordy — October 24, 2008 @ 1:27 pm | Reply

  7. Hull!

    Comment by weltmeisterclaude — October 24, 2008 @ 2:10 pm | Reply

  8. Stoke, Bolton, Hull work for me. I believe that the three that stand the best chance of being relegated are Stoke, Bolton, and West Ham. It’s been pretty much ignored, but the Spammers have gutted their squad and are likely to do more selling in January. They are hurting for dosh because of Iceland’s investment bankings huge debt crisis [including their majority owner], and the pending fine from the FA. They SHOULD also lose some points, but they won’t.

    I think that Hull’s banking points now will stand them in good stead. They’ll be 20th the following season, though.

    Comment by HatterDon — October 24, 2008 @ 5:18 pm | Reply

  9. The three worst teams are Stoke, Bolton, and Tottenham until they prove they can even draw in a game.

    Comment by RR — October 24, 2008 @ 7:19 pm | Reply


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