I have always suspected Pele of being slightly overhyped. The Maradona v Pele debates always seemed interesting enough, but I don’t know how many of the people involved had actually watched the latter playing, and if they had, how they were able to make those performances stand up against Maradona’s extraoardinary genius.
Maradona was a phenomenon. He devastated defences wherever he went, won games (literally) single handedly, and until Lionel Messi came along was very clearly (to me at least) the best player that ever there was. Pele? Sure, good player – he must have been a really good player – but part of it always seemed to be a brand issue (what a neat name Pele is? So obviously fit for purpose, and he’s gone around being a wholesome nice man and Maradona’s had some issues) and part of it a timing issue (that 1970 team is everyone’s favourite, which I couldn’t necessarily disagree with, although West Germany’s team of that era was pretty tasty, too, and Hungary’s team of the 1950s has the highest ever ELO rating recorded, which is instructive – but Maradona’s teams weren’t beloved at all; quite the opposite).
Anyway, we may return to Maradona, but in the meantime, let’s focus on Pele. Absent any real experience of watching the man I must content myself with cold, hard facts. Some of the coldest and hardest facts are these:
Brazil played in 161 matches in between Pele’s debut in 1957 and his retirement in 1971 (that longevity is, of course, a feather in his cap).
Pele played in 92 of these games.
When he played Brazil’s record was P92, W67, D14, L11. They scored 236 times, conceded 87, at averages of 2.6 per game and 0.9 per game respectively. They therefore won 73% of their matches.
When Pele was missing the team’s record was P67, W42, D12, L15, F152, A91, with averages for the latter two of 2.3 and 1.4. They won 63% of their games.
Based on that you’d have to say that Pele was pretty important. Another way of looking at it is that Brazil were a Premier League club, the Pele version would finish the season with 89 points, the non-Pele version 78 points (based on win-draw-lose ratios).
That’s quite conclusive.
But is it the full story? Let’s keep digging and find some more cold, hard facts.
Pele played in 49 of Brazil’s 79 friendlies in that time period, 6 of 16 South American Championships and 14 of 21 World Cup matches. I don’t think this really tells us anything.
Did he miss games against certain opponents? Not really, or at least not to the point where it might be skewing data. He played in 6 of the 7 games against Portugal and 3 of the 4 against West Germany, but only 3 of the 10 against Uruguay, 7 of the 17 against Chile and 10 of the 18 against Argentina. He didn’t play in either of Brazil’s games against Hungary.
But here is something: 48 of the 92 games he played in were in Brazil, but only 17 of the 69 were at home! Pele was dodging the away trips!*
(*not necessarily dodging, but not always present, either)
Did this matter?
In home games with Pele playing Brazil won 34 of 48 matches, drew 9 and lost 5.
In home games without Pele Brazil won 15 of 17 matches, drew 2 and didn’t lose.
In away games with Pele, Brazil won 33 of 44, drew 5 and lost 6.
In away games without Pele, Brazil won 27 of 52, drew 10 and lost 15. Ow.
The above if converted to a Premiership season:
87, 105, 90, 67.
By that token, Brazil were amazing with him in the side, could win at home without him, but dropped off considerably when they had to go away and he couldn’t/didn’t play.
So there you have it. Pele was really good! (NB – rigourous analysis would see if other key players were missing from some of these away trips. If they were shadow sides – and this can be checked – then the above doesn’t hold up).
I might try to do the same thing for Maradona one day.
Much of this data was mined from http://www.rsssfbrasil.com/sel/brazila.htm
I’d be interested in the Maradona analysis, because it has always been my impression that he took average teams and made them world beaters (particularly Argentina and Napoli). This is always what has made him stand out from the rest, and why it will be difficult for me to ever accept Messi as up there with Maradona.
Agree – will see what we get (assuming data available)
Excellent write up Rich – where do you get the time!
Legend in my own lunch hour!
I appreciate your analysis. A great post.
I saw Pele play for Santos and (sadly past his prime) for the Cosmos. With Santos, he was a level much higher than anyone else. This despite being marked and constantly chopped down whenever the referee was not looking. The site of Pele’s shins being chopped was as common as the ball being headed (the referee let the game flow back then).
Pele seemed two generations ahead of his peers in regards to technique, speed, tactics, improvization, and explosiveness. You see film from that era and the game was slower because of the ball, the pitch, shoes, tactics, conditioning, etc. Except Pele seemed like a 2011 player in this setting (you look at the old newspaper write-ups and you will see him described as running and jumping like a gazelle-it is true).
The only other athlete I ever saw who was equally better than his peers was Gretzsky in Hockey.
I realize this sounds like a romance novel compared to your outstanding analysis. Greatness can only be measured against the people you play with at the time. Pele played aganst Charlton, not against Maradona.
The question is not how much better was Pele relative to Maradona, but Pele to his peers, and Maradona to his peers. Your post is a good start. Your next analysis on Maradona could be the start of a Sabrematric book on the topic, as I am sure you can analyze this one forever.
Not at all, that’s really good context and makes sense. Thanks for the input, much appreciated.
That’s rather a lot of analysis to come to the shocking conclusion “Pele was really good”.
Testing the hype, Josh. We’ll see what happens with Maradona next.
Dry? Good grief. You’d probably reduce Mozart to a bunch of squiggly pictures on a bunch of straight lines, and Picasso to a load of colour splattered on a canvas. What a load of tosh.
Er, thanks. You’ve added a lot to the discussion.
To spell it out: greatness rarely shows itself in a fact or a figure.
Well of course it doesn’t. But as I mentioned, I haven’t actually seen Pele play for 90 minutes, so thought I’d have a different look. It’s not meant to be the be all and end all, it’s not meant to be anything, but given that we’re in an international break and I was curious I just thought I’d see.
You would, would you not, concede that if a team is equally good with as without a player then perhaps greatness isn’t all that it might seem? Or not, I don’t know, just asking the question and seeing what I find. No harm in that, eh?